What's up everybody? Today's episode is extra special. Why? Why? I'll tell you why. Tell me why. Not only are we broadcasting at the top tier creme de la creme production rental studio of Bergen County, new Jersey, blank space studio. But I get the rare opportunity or punishment to hang out with my friend Rocco and his stout mug. So do me a favor. Strap on. Strap in. It's going to be a good one, Arches. You hear the great news? One news. The New York Yankees are finally allowed to have beards. Really? If you want to watch two guys that have been accused of having beards for years. Go to Anti-fog pod on YouTube and hit that like subscribe button. I'm rock and I'm Artie. All right. What's up everybody. This is a special treat. An in-person interview. What do you think? Love it. Love it. How are you guys still to rest up in person today, we have Frank white, journalist, photographer Alan Tokyo, veteran vocalist for bands such as Hades, Watchtower and nonfiction. Guys, welcome. Thanks. Thank you. Saucy. Here. Yeah. The this is where we start off. There's a million fun questions. I have nine questions. As a music nerd, I love this, but I couldn't get to the whole thing. But I read chunks and I clean Kiss Zeppelin. I love everything about this book, so kudos to you guys. Thank you. A while ago, we did an in-person interview with, your friend Chauncey Hayden. You came by, you were in the, in the, behind the scenes. You gave us a book, and Rocco took it. I took it, I thought it was awesome. And I'm glad that this interview came to fruition. Thank you. Was there, fire first thing I took from this book. Okay. Now, Rocco and I, we always said this on a podcast. For years, we've been in bands. We're a little bit behind. You guys have been playing in the generation of rock and roll in new Jersey, but I'm so envious of all the clubs that were around. Yeah. Years ago. Yes, I like it, but I like All right thing, but Starlight Ballroom or or what have got three more, you know, like debonair. Yeah. Debonair. This is a great venue but I can't like I tried that I said I should probably write things down from, from upstate New York to Garfield to Woodbridge to to, to Hackensack. Like you could play anywhere in new Jersey, right? Please. There was a scene there in the city. That's why this book is here. That's why this book is here. So I just wanted to get that out because the more and more I read this book, I'm like, I can't believe how many, how many places to play. Like, I was actually getting, like a little bit pissed off because I'm like, I wish I could have had the opportunity of all these clubs that were out there. Sure. Right. So please. But that being said, tell us how this book started and why. And it's obviously a labor of love, right? You guys did work around this for two and a half year. Two and a half years. It took. Yeah. It was photographer for almost 50 years at this point when I, I had the idea, came up with starter five, I started I actually my mom started teaching me photography at six years old because she was a photographer in the 40s and 50s. Okay. So she taught me for about six years before I started, wanting to photograph my first band, which was LED Zeppelin. And it just happened to be at Madison Square Garden. So I had to come up with a plan to get a camera out of my mom's closet and tell my parents a lie, that I was going around the corner in a friend's house, and I knew how to get into the city because she taught me how to get there because her she'd like to drive. So I started going to my first show without them knowing. By filming the city then ended up getting a ticket to the orchestra. I was able to photograph my first show, and then that led to a second show, third show, and that went on. And it just went on for decades. And then came up with this idea in 2000, 19 or so, to come up with a book that represented the whole new Jersey heavy metal scene. And I thought of Jersey metal. And then from there I had to find a partner, and along came Allen, because he ended up interviewing, and reviewing my book. Ronnie James deal. Okay. So I ended up doing a partnership together. And what year was that? Around 2020. Won the partnership for the book. For deal? No. The of the partnership? Yeah. Just like during Covid. Yeah, yeah. Took me the book. Took two and a half years to make. Do I help? Covid was a great time, actually, to start a project. Right. You got to have that kind of how we got into this. We we had talked about it for years, but then you got time on your hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So first story and like, you just mentioned Zeppelin, so you like, you took the bus, right? And so there was no story. I told you that I was 12. Wow. Yeah. You guys have kids? Very small. Okay. But, like, I can't leave my 13 year old alone in the room. Yeah. No go in the city. I mean, the extent of. I think we took the nine to the Willow Brook. That's from Bloomfield Avenue. And that was like around 13, 14. But I wouldn't even imagine going to the garden at that age. But that's kudos to you. Yes, I did to the Berlin Wall for taking the bus, you know, but, that was because it was just going on like maybe a day or something like that back in the day. But to go into the city, my parents, you know, my father would drive on the weekends. My mother would go to see her mom, father, during the week, you know, up in the Bronx. Yeah. So I knew how to take the bus and then the subway up to there, and then I just figured out. And I was also into the art. And there was this guy called scene that was doing all the graffiti back in those days, you know, on the subway cars. And so I got to, you know, copy down some of these stuff, you know, and I just figured out where all the stops were, you know, because I was going there to the house multiple times to see my, my grandparents. So you go see Zeppelin. You're 12 years old. You're by yourself. Yeah. Okay. This is how certain movie star know that you're by you're by yourself. Literally. It's the plot of Home Alone, by the way. But, like. All right. So you navigate in from in this story, I remember you get like a ticket. Right. Which like, it seems like it was getting tickets to closer to the family whole easier back then. Yeah. Like a little cheaper. Yeah. Oh, I see them. Bought five bucks to see kiss. Yeah. Four bucks to, like, you know, Ticketmaster convenience charge in those days. And I remember waiting on line after, you know, soon after to, to get tickets. You know, when my parents realized I was going to shows now and so, so I'd be waiting, you know, overnight sometime for tickets in front of the Capital Theater or the garden, you know, Nassau Coliseum. Even so, I have a an older brother who introduced me to all this music, so I like what growing up in the 90s, when everybody was, like, into rap, like Benny and Wu-Tang, all that stuff where I am, too. But I was also wearing a kiss jacket, the school. And then they were like, let that fucking where I was photographing those bands back then was so as well as that, you know. So I have an appreciation. He used to tell me stories. He's like, yeah, I went to see Springsteen at the Capitol Theater. I saw he used to tell me stories like, when bands used to play the big venues garden. They might stop at the Capitol Theater. Yeah, and do another show there under a different name or something. So, like, I have an appreciation for those, but, so just as an example, Queen Zeppelin, like, you're there, you're in, you're up front, you're taking pictures. Nobody I guess back then nobody's stopping you. You look at your skin. The security was a lot lighter. And so like, they they knew I wasn't going to cause any trouble. You know, I had a camera on my back, you know. Oh, let me take a few pictures. It's no big deal. They figured it somebody out. Yeah, but I wouldn't like, I wouldn't I wouldn't overstep, you know, and try to go into that area or try to get in front of other people. I always try to stick to the aisle, you know. And that way no one was saving. Yeah. No. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. as the book progressed, I started to see pictures that were like almost backstage though, right. Or hanging with. So I got back from a lot of those photos came from the bands, themselves. I needed photos to kind of put the reader in a spot where, you know, they're inside the club, they're backstage early on to get the idea of how, like, this all started. And and I got them from the bands by just contacting them online. Would you know if someone gave you their information? I feel like back then it was so, so much harder to connect. Right now we have the internet. We have right ways to use social media. Back then, it's like, I got to know somebody who know somebody or like that. I'm with you. Yeah. I'm, photo agent. I run a photo agency called Frank White Photo Agency. So I get to find people all the time. Awesome. You know, and so I took their information and they have photos, and I try to pick all the photos, from the state, you know, wherever, you know, Jersey photographers, they I just want, like, clubs, theaters, arenas that I don't have whatever you might have. Let's check it out and we make a decision from the big venues as the Guardian and Brendan Byrne Arena. I'm very open, to to little clubs, to the Union Jack, to, circus. Circus. Yeah. So stuff. I've never even heard hole in the wall. Yeah, well, so that means you had to have been going to your going shows a whole time. Every day there. Like every week, every week, every week. They say, are you going to the shows? You know, in the beginning, it was mostly the arenas and theaters. And then when I was old enough to go into the clubs around, you know, the industry at the in the 1970s, you know, I started going to a mix each week and, you know, I would bring my camera and all the time. So you had to have been known by that, like, there's that, there's that guy called Frank. Oh, for sure, sure for sure. Yeah. Frank Letterman. Yeah. There were people there like, you know, one guy I worked at Capitol Theater, Jeff Witwer, he would, just say, I know this guy. You know, the guy comes here all the time. Photographs, you know, even while he's cool. You know, this wasn't a trouble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Help me out. Sometimes gives you more more of a show, you know, or the Ritz or, you know, or, you know, one of the clubs and, you know, the at the time that was there were around that knew me, you know, so we kind of, you know, make a friendship with them. One of the pictures I saw in there, correct me if I'm wrong, willies. Yes, but it was that the original, where? The stairway. Oh, good. Bucket scar. That ballroom. That's right. Because you saw the building. That's when I went to see it. They said because you. I believe you said it was the first club in, like, the Singer Ville area or something. That a Union Jack was sort of near there. Right there. So. Okay. Yeah. But, that was sort of like the place to go at that time period. Wasn't that big. It was I yeah, it was about the same size. You know, they might have, they might have maybe did something on the inside, the front. You said it was too, but I think, yeah. Yes, yes. There was like and so we, you know, concentrated on obviously the, the heavy metal artists that came into that room. my question would be, okay, you guys get together in 2021 ish to, to write this. How do you did you keep journals like how did you recall all these all this information like we were talking about randomly about, a certain show we went to and we looked at a lot of shows. I mean, I remember we went to a show, I couldn't say where it was going to say what year it was. Okay. How do you have how do you have that that recall of the dates and the stories and the time? Okay. So a lot of times I back in the day when I first started going to shows, you know, I wanted to have everything as a souvenir, you know, from like a t shirt to, maybe the tour program or, the photos. Obviously, I wanted to write down something about it, and I would just, you know, start taking some notes, you know, like, I would go in to my grandparents house, you know, just sit there like, you know, just draw. You know, I was into art and drawing as a kid. So I just would sketch or, you know, write things down. And then that kind of kept going. But I never considered myself a writer back then because I was more doing things like photography. Yeah. Level that, you know, nobody else around me was doing, you know. So I just kept going with that and with the notes and stuff. I just gathered some of them, you know, would gather a flier or, or whatever I could get from the show and have it in my, put it in my, drawers and kept it there until I started getting file cabinet. Then I started putting all my stuff in file cabinets. Got organized archive this guy. Yeah. That's that I like. I have like, a dozen file cabinets. All that. All surround me with everything from, you know, set list. You know, invites, you know, our recipes for, you know, for, for parties, photo passes, tickets. Wow. Slides, negatives, prints, slides, stuff that you need to look back on. And I just keep collecting that over the years. It's like you had the foresight back then, but you didn't. Yeah, I read a book or something like that. But yeah, trying to get the setlists early on, you know, like they, you know, some would still see what they had to remember on the, on the floor, you know. So that's what, that's what I love, I love we planned like five minutes ahead of time. You think. Yeah. The, what I like is that you actually you would say the show, you know, it was, AC crazy AC, DC opening for like, New Jane or opening for who? I forget. But other bands that were back then. But it's like after their third album, they should be headlining. Yeah. Not really, you know. Yeah. But, you would, you would, you would jot down the setlist, right? Yeah. Well, you know, like, they want to put things in order, you know. So that way, you know, a lot of other people will probably went to that show. Yeah. So like, you know, I kind of want to keep things. So I don't keep getting emails. Hey, you know that song was there instead of, you know. Yeah. It's like, you know, how to just just check, you know, sometimes with other people or, you know, the setlist. I had or wherever I could to figure out, you know, what? Everything was in order. Even sometimes the internet, you know, you watched the evolution of Sabbath, right? Pretty much from when I first started like that. Yeah. And then I never I didn't I knew a couple of names, like I was talking about my brother would fill me in on some stuff, but I didn't know there was for a minute a Jersey guy got the job. You know, if he was like, let's say King Regal and regular Ray Gillen, I think I didn't know that he was in bands like Quest and Harlot back in the day. When I started going shows like this, you know, the was six months and said, come on, King. And I was at his first show and I read that. Yeah, but that's awesome to see, to CDO. And then that was pretty cool, is that I'm a I'm a big Kiss fan. So when Eric Singer was part of that for a little while. So that was really cool. to intertwine your life experience with the pictures is a great marine story to tell it to show people. And it also, I believe, you know, selling pictures to like, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yes, that's one of the outlets that I work with. That's great. Yeah, that's also about that. That came about. It was I was working with a, editor on a book, a long time ago, over 20 years ago. And she said, hey, you know, one of my other clients is the Rock Roll Hall of Fame. And since you're a photographer for many years, you've shuttled genres of music. You know, why don't you, you know, stay in touch with me and I'll put you in touch with the people that need to look at photographs to put in the, the, the program or the television show. And I said, great. And so we've been working together over 20 years now. So I get all the I get all the, the, programs that they give out at the, the hall, over the event happens. So, yeah, sometimes my stuff ends up on the TV part of it, you know, maybe flash behind the screen when the guys, like, with black keys and, ducted, Steve Miller. I saw the photo for a guy who shot him in, like, 1972 or something like that. Wow. Yeah. So I like, you, like, hippie stuff. Yeah. And, that that was behind the screen. So I got, you know, some $100 for that photo, and I give, I don't give, like a 60% cut to the, photographer. And we get both our names at the end of the show, and, or could run in, like, the way you talk about the band, you know, they have, like, a little five minute behind the music. Sometimes the photos go in there. So let's talk about Allen for a second. Right. What's going on in your life? Right. You had a musical career. We picked up where we left off. Were you late 70s, early 80s. Talk about where where you were at in relative to music. Early 80s. Yeah. Well, I was just coming out of high school, and, I was in a band called prophecy that led me into a band called aggressor, and then eventually Hades. And then I made my first album. So I guess that's we did a 45 first, and it was like 1985 and, first record, like 86 and 87. So we started playing a lot of shows, and I kind of joined a band that already had it a buzz going on and a bunch of songs, and people knew about them and stuff. So I kind of got lucky that way. But that's where I was in the mid to early 80s, for sure. And I met, Alan through prophecy. I did their photos for them. So not only did you find him for this in 2021 or right. Yeah. We were the first band to pose for, like, a shoot. Yeah. Wow. But you guys had that action, and it was right in the middle for the town I grew up in as a child. And then I moved over to Bergenfield and then that started. I started my career at that. The origin story. Right now. So we, Do you guys, by any chance stay in contact all these years for doing anything with rock and roll or just friendship? And we kept we constantly ran into each other and we actually ran into each other in California in vacation together for a few days. So that's totally by accident. Don't a that's cool. But yeah, I would see every single show I went to. Frank was in the picture, you know. Oh, okay. Oh, absolutely. So now you're shooting him in. What would you, would you say this is the first time? Yeah. I was in 1982, 83, maybe. Oh that's right. Yeah, yeah. The 83. And you're in prophecy. Prophecy 9480. Okay. So now, a couple of whatever the time stamp would be a year or two later, you're in 80. Yep. Like. All right. So now he's pretty big in love locally. Yeah. Like you guys were really big. And our claim to fame, we got to open up with you, I think a couple times. The record with the rec room. Nice. Nice. Miss that place. Yeah. Yeah. Nice there a lot. Yeah. But, I was a deejay there on Thursdays. There. Yeah. Yeah, that. I'm sorry. I've got Hades that I shot at the rec room. We'll be at our, believe our next book. Yep. Yeah. Oh, yes. Because this is a series. Yeah. Right. So this is 69 to 86, and then we're gonna go at 86 to 87, oh four, 87 to oh four. Yeah. So that's like everything that's the book. Yeah. The final volume is 2005 to 2021. That's awesome. That's really cool. Just talking about opening up for Hades at the rec room. Like, to us, it was it was an absolute huge deal, you know? No, I mean, when you guys, when you guys were all there was like, okay, this is this is this is a band where this is a real band toward the end, you know, success albums. They said they were like, get the fuck off. You know? I was like, all right, all right, all right. So just, And then what? I heard you sing. I just wanted to quit music. I was like, okay, so I don't have any illusions. Ever try to sing half as good as this guy? I think I know, but that was the feeling. But that was that was like, kind of like, we were young in our venture of of music, but it was like, wow, this is, this was, this is a band that that we looked up to every time a couple, maybe two, three times we opened up for you guys there. Always great. And guys always packed the plays or just said it was. It was a fun vibe. That's what I remember about those times, because we were just kind of getting started. That's cool, that's cool. Yeah, that had to be probably like around 2003 or what? No one. It's probably more like 99, 2000. I was I was getting it right into digital and there's 1000, 2001. Yeah, yeah. Because we did Sage's, we had a metal deal with kind of out of nowhere. So we did Save yourself in 98. Downside 99, I believe in 2000 we'll put out a damnation. Okay. So it would have been probably around I think it was the. Yeah. Yeah, I remember, reading, I guess, where you guys were. Hades called it quits. I remember reading of I said to you this was back. What? You're in it. Did he stop playing, like, like the first time? Yeah, I had no, I guess the final time, I guess, I guess it would have been in early 2000. It was, in one of the magazines. I was, I forgot this is what it says. Hades hangs up the pitchfork, and it was, like, very, like, funny the way the band Metal Maniacs maybe very, very sad. That sounds about right. But I, I want to go back to the clubs like, what what was the vibe back then saying, give me, like, 72, 73. You're there. People are. Well, like, what was a rock vibe back then? I see celebration, I see celebration in the blood. So friends. Yeah. So no. So basically, like, I was a little young to really appreciate that scene at that early time in the early 70s. So, you know, I would be watching a lot of the, the music I like that was on TV at the time now versus rock concert in concert, you know, even Ed Sullivan or whatever. But, you know, so I was getting prepared, I guess, to want to go see music and and being a photographer in my mind, like, I have the confidence to want to photograph music and be a part of, like a new scene that, you know, was, explored by a lot of the people that I was hanging out with. And I and I just, took it very, you know, naturally, when I started to, photograph any of the shows I was able to get to. And, I loved it because they were always out there. There were always coming week after week. And even in the clubs, I noticed, you know, when I was picked up, maybe like the newspapers, they would have like, so many more clubs to go to that, you know, people knew that they could make money on liquor and alcohol and they knew there was a big drinking, you know, scene. So a lot of people said, you know what? There's an empty space. I want to make that into a bar, you know? And the next thing you know, someone else said, hey, you know what? I might do the same thing over in this town. And then by year, you know, it just happened and started to sprinkle out all over the state. I don't forget drinking age was 18. Yeah. I wanted to bring that up. Thank you. Do you think that helped a lot? Yeah. Are you honestly part of the Jersey scene was run by the mob. You know, some of the. Yeah. You know, you know, the bars and bars would stay open till like three, four in the morning. You know, bands would have to play like 4 or 5, sets a night back in those days, you know, they wanted to keep people out there drinking there. You know, there wasn't a big the DWI laws, you know, so, yeah, they figured it out. You know, let's just keep serving them and that's what. And that's why the places kept going. Because they were able to make so much money, you know, the drinking and you know, and then the band started to get really, really good, you know, you know, starting the scene started exploding and some of these bands started to take off on their own direction and end up into a bigger, acts and, cover acts, tribute acts like a lot of these. They're doing, like, set 4 or 5 sets a night and then, like, they're doing their, their, their, their Sabbath, their trip decided that night they're doing their tribute to kiss that night. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Tribute bands as far back as, like, you know, them at seven, you know, and they were making, like, making good money, like they were doing this probably. I mean, they probably that day jobs, but I'm sure that they were you know, there were certain bands that actually moved from down south, up north to just play because they knew the scene was so great that they would get money all the time by playing different clubs, you know. Yeah, we got this cafe. Mr.. Right here, the playing that night there. And they just figured, you know, we'll just rent a house, live, you know, live together and then make money together. And that's what they did. And a lot of them didn't work day jobs, believe it or not. But we just interviewed Ken Neal, the original bass player for Twisted Sister. Okay. Those guys were actually back then, like Frank said, playing a lot, but they didn't have jobs. You know, that's how they made the money. Another weird question that we asked Twisted Sister back then. Yeah, no, we fuck with them. The way they look, the way they look, they look huge on stage, I know, but like oh yeah, man, oh man. Like like, they were some ugly girls. Yeah. But like, you know, like deciding to say, like, he's cool as fuck. Like just in what he stands for, how intelligent he is. Number one. Yeah, but the way they look, I understand it was like that glam rock look, but, like, they were like a biker gang when they got off that stage or wore the same, you know, cut off jackets, patches, you know, just like a biker group would really, you know, and, they, it's, you know, they're all like tall guys, you know, so, you know, they look, you know, like they were always hitting the ceiling. Yeah. The big clubs I always go to see, you know, in fact, in some of my photos you can see like the, like, almost touching the ceiling, you know, and said I was sitting right there. It's right above them, you know, their platforms on too. Yeah. That, Jesus Christ, I'm sure that. Yeah, that we would have made he went from platforms so high heels, you know, that was high enough to give more of a show that. Oh, God. So let's talk about okay, you guys talk, get together. We're going to read a book, talk about that process of putting butts in here. You know, and then on paper, you know, pictures obviously. So we talked about it and he made money as an editor. So I said, okay, we'll have you start doing the editing for the stories that we write. You know, and I'm kind of like writing notes and then putting them into for, you know, sentence form. And then it's given to him and then he's doing his magic to get everything, you know, just right. And he was writing for years, you know, and, so I figured it would be a great pair to do this, book. And it did so well, Allen, you know, he's been around for many years, you know, writing and singing and stuff. So he was the perfect person to talk from, from the stage point of view and my my point of view from the from the pit. Yeah. Literally perfect person. Right. You've played all the clubs at the clubs you wrote for Stepping Out, which was like the Bible around back in the day. Three years. Yeah, I love that. I that was my there's a good run. Yeah. You going going to I used to deliver pizza for many years and I use it on my way of stepping out. Where are we not playing this weekend right now? But like, that was like, you know. Yeah, I'm probably the guy who delivered it wherever you picked it up. So there's a little section in the back that. Thank you. Right. We both I think both of you thanked your family. Your family. Right. Because it took a lot of time. Oh, definitely. You know, you know, like, how how are those sessions between you two coming up? You know, what are a few hours every week, you know, and go through the process, you know, page by page. Sometimes we'd skip some pages, you know, here we go. I got a great story, you know, put that together. Well with the photos that I had, I try to make sure that all the stories had some kind of image to, to match what I was talking about. Yeah. And then, you know, we found, like, Vance had some fliers, you know, and collectors had some. We get, images from different sources, but, you know, see here in new Jersey, you know, to make it authentic, how much stuff did it look like? Or what did it was that was there, like, I think we really trimmed it down. You know, we cherry picked everything. Yeah. You know, make sure that that, like, you know. Hey, do you think this photo really looks worthwhile for this page? You know, like, sometimes we'd go back and forth, you know, you know, just on the creative end of it, just making sure that it looked way different than any other book I've ever seen. And plus, you know, I'm not gonna I'm not reading books while I'm making this book. You know, it's just all to our heads, you know, and just going right into the computer and seeing how each page looks. And, you know, he's great at what he does, you know, putting the, you know, the book together, you know, and making sure that everything is nice and straight. You know, the bags look just right. It's beautiful. So you guys did a great job. There's there's one picture in there that I wanted to ask about. If you can give me more information, if there's any other stories there for there. As a little boy, my mom would take me back and forth to my grandmother's. She was on the border of the infield, and, East Orange. So we used to pass a place called the Dirt Club. All right. And every time I used to go to my mom, my. What's the dirt club? Right. That's a little plane. And my. I think I'm my brother. My dad was in the car one day and like, oh, that's a rock club. I was like, oh, cool. What do they do there? Yeah, the dirt club. Yeah. I don't know if there was a I did see a picture of it in here. Right. But I don't know if there was much to tell about it, but could you give me some my own personal curiosity as you begin your life? Were you there? Did you go there a lot? Yeah, I went there. I went there a bunch of times. I knew Johnny Dirt. I was on the corner. Oh, yeah, that's Jack. Brother Johnny would actually. One day he came up to me. He goes, Frank, this is for you. And he gives me this bag of dirt, dirt club, you know, you know, and dayglo letters. And my sister went there once, and she got a tiny little bag. So I was thinking about putting that, like, in the next book, you know, a photo of that, along with photos that we have of Johnny hanging out. And I think one was with, Billy Monroe from the band Monroe. Okay. Yeah. Monroe was playing all over new Jersey back then, and they kind of like, you know, was just wanted to keep everything local with those guys, you know, for the time being. And, you know, I would run into them. But that club, you know, had different types of music, new wave, hardcore rock, heavy metal. I saw the band def play there. Okay. Well, yeah. Know. Yeah. And, so they're, I think they're going in our, our next signs as well. Yeah. That's. Oh. And so the aquarium the local people that you have probably all the time, they've always had it. They hosted some nights there. Okay. You know, so and it was really cool because it was right off the Garden State Parkway, you know, very convenient. Yeah. Would any bigger big acts go to that kind of. What was the venue like inside? I never really went to the club myself. Was it like, would you equate it to, it almost had like a Cbgb kind of vibe. Okay. But maybe a little bit more clean or not. And, and looking about, you know, great. And I think that band here. Yeah. Now we sort of like, you know, it was this kind of club where you bump into, like, different rockers, you know, people and see the wall. Oh, it was cool. Another cool, another cool venue in there. I had the pleasure under age come to the studio one to see Ace Fraley. Oh. And one of the, one of the coolest things was that I was my brother and I pretty much no, no Rose we were up front. You know, you can pretty much touch with Les Paul. And the best thing was he came out the band the smoke you know. Right. Yeah. Looks over and goes where are we. Sit down. And they were like, North New Jersey. You. Some people think it's Brattleboro. Yeah, yeah, it's it's north newer. Yeah. So then we we grew up more going to tequila Joe's right. It turned into tequila Joe's right afterwards. But studio one. You guys have any stories about studio One? And then we forget lugging the gear up and down those stairs. That was three, two, three levels, right? A lot of good shows there. That for sure. Okay. Somebodys car always got broken into a car for the course. You know, my fortunately was safe through the years where you might got broken into in New York, you know, at like Lemoore East and then Lemoore Point. But yeah, I used to go there and I remember Patricia, you know, taking a doing this, a lot of the promoting there. Dan Davis, you know, you know, some bands like Fear Factory, trickster. Yeah, they were new Jersey band. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah. Did you guys play with that at all? I was there playing with trickster. There a different kind of band. They were, they were a Christian band all the way back home safe. But, they wouldn't turn a club back in the early days, just like us. You know, they became really big tricks, I think. Triggered by the overdub, possibly over the fur kiss. They did? Yeah. That's, my my first show was 1990 Nassau Coliseum. Hot in the shade tour. Okay, so that was. I was like, ten. Yeah, 11. You know, and then my second show shortly after that was you can maybe help me out. What was the theater connected to? Madison Square Garden itself saying get a felt for form. And then it became, a couple other names since then. All right. That's theater was, ozone. Oh. With so 90, I don't know what tour that would have been, but like, Zach Wilde was very skinny. Wow. And wearing, like, bellbottoms. Yeah. You know, like, he wasn't that biker biker guy. Friends got shots of him in that era. Oh, they're so funny. Like like I saw that. I was like, wow. Like, life is just different, you know, ten, 11 years old. Like, what is this? Which that's what I'm just. I'm assuming what you felt. I went to the Hot and Shade party. Check out this had. Yeah, it had a dance there. The Charlie O's after the garden show. Really? Yeah. The same tour. Good times. Yeah, I got it was close dancing, like half naked. Yeah. Jim put his mouth over the top of the cake, you know, because it was a pyramid, you know, I got a nice shot of that, you know, it was just like rotary, you know, and, like, guys from Skid Row were there. Yeah, we were all everybody's girlfriends, you know, there were dancers, you know, got photos of them, like, you can see right through. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. We have such, an affinity and love for these clubs, right, right. The clubs. So when we got into it early 2000, we played a lot of the cool clubs. But wait, when they're way past their prime, when there wasn't a scene there. But. Yeah, but Cbgb was at the underground. Continental. Like the city clubs, all the cool places. But when they really work for it, yeah, yeah, they kind of became popular. Like the later on. Yeah. Jersey clubs kind of simmer down a bit. Yeah. There were it's like oh strawberry for the Yankees. Yeah. There's hum. Yeah. But in the book seeing these, these these Jersey clubs were writing like mothers and like places like that. But isn't that it? I echo Archie's sentiment of I was a jealous that. Oh, my God, this would have been this would be great. You know, playing in that time. Right. And what this book, how you guys did it, is it fits together perfectly. It's like it's it's almost like a, a novel and a photo essay all together, to me. And so this will be. It'll sound like a weird, comparison. This was like The Sopranos for me. And I'll tell you what. Wow. A Jersey kid, right? I saw it. Watch The Sopranos or nobody's going to get this. Oh, people in Jersey are going to get this. No, that translates all over the world. All over the country. And that's not. And that's what this book is to me. Wow. It's about Jersey. But it's so relatable. And the iconic places it translates across the country that that that's my thought. That's cool. Dude. I'm a huge Sopranos fan. Yeah. So I can understand where you're coming from here, you know? And like, I put a lot of time and effort through the years photographing, collecting stories in my head, you know, just writing notes down, making sure I had everything, you know, for this book, you know, to make it the best it could be. Because no one out there was doing a book similar to this around the country that I know, you know. And so I figured, you know what? This is really pack of points with this one, you know, and that's what we did. You know, we made sure that I can tell you see, it as much as it comes across it, if it seems like everything had a purpose and and an impact. Right. Each story. Cool. Thank you. Thanks. What's great? One more, maybe tell. We can get from you. One of the last stories I read last night before I went to bed was Metallica coming to Old Bridge? Okay, like, if you're kind of put it, if you're, like, a big Metallica fan, you might know a lot about them. But this was like their first time, I believe, possibly leaving home. Right. Coming to new Jersey, a fucking old bridge. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And shacking up with anthrax in the city. Please give us any type of information or any type of. How was it back then? Which of those guys are photographing those guys, seeing those guys at that time? It was their first trip to the East Coast and they heard about Johnny Z, and they wanted Johnny Z, heard of them, and they wanted to kind of like, you know, meet up and see some of their shows live. So they kind of made arrangements to play a couple, have them play a few places close by. And, the old Bridge Militia had started, which was a bunch of guys and girls from, the old bridge area, and they got a group together of people that would help out bands when they came by. And when the guys from, Metallica came to the old bridge area and they were right there to help them, you know, hey, come on, stay over our house. Yeah. So. And, you know, PA, you hang out, you know, beach guys, you know, set up. Yeah, that's what they did. You know, they got those guys where they told Johnny all about them, you know, and they were having fun, you know, just with them. And then the next thing you know, they're they're starting to play a couple shows and you know, showcasing to everybody in the area what talent they had. But yeah, where do they play. Like their first little, a story I read it had, one guitar. It was like a that you get guys, like, partying somewhere at the house, or maybe there was like some venue, but there was like one guitar and Mustaine and Hetfield were like, kind of fighting about who's gonna play guitar, but that's the in the metal house. Yeah. Okay. Yes. All right. And were you, were you there for that one and you were telling the story, but, no, but we were told if I guys at all. Okay, that were there. All right. And then how about what was the first time you saw Metallica? I saw Metallica on April 8th, 1983, at the Paramount Theater in Staten Island, when it was, the, it was, Metallica, the Rods and Vandenberg. And then the following night they played the same, same show over at L'Amour in Brooklyn. And then after that, that was, a few days later, that's when, Dave, you know, was fired and, brought in Kirk right there after. And they started doing a lot of the smaller club shows, but in, in new Jersey. Yeah. And that's, you know, where the old bridge militia come in. And they also it's like like you show up pictures and look how they're playing South River, new Jersey, South American church, right. But yet live there. There was nothing down there. Yeah. Where do they played? South at the union. Yeah. I think you can check like, that and then fast forward to how many years later they're playing, see at MetLife Stadium. Yeah. Two nights not no repeat songs. Yeah, yeah. And I was it, I believe it. I was in the snake pit as well. So that so your career and it's not stopping I don't know. You're not at all. So your career has lasted a long time. Yes. 50 years. Both of you get to enjoy a lot of metal history in new Jersey. Yep. Yeah. And and now we're making a no budget documentary film called Jersey metal. Also on making the second book. And you guys are part of it now. Awesome. Yeah, I very cool. I love that, from two schmucks from new Jersey that have played some of these clubs. We played members of the bartender there. You did you break your ankles? I'm off the stage. I jumped off the stage. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a nice thing he's broke his ankle. We left our banner. There was a fucked up night. Oh, man, we got to play. I got up a rock. I got a gig at from. This is. This is insane. It was a Monday night. I'm like, it's the city. This kind of. It's like open mic night. I'm working on stage. We get there, we start putting the banner up. The sound guy goes, get your fucking banner off that. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was like a vent or something in the banner. Whatever. Right. So we go on. There was a shoot once again, the bartender there, his girlfriend, maybe a couple. We played our set. We played like it was packed. We had a great time. We got to play CBGB's. We took a piss in the famous bathroom. We did. So we got off stage and it was like. Like a fucking movie. Yeah. Come on in there. Off stage. Let's go off on the fucking club. But like. But people start to come in. I'm like, what the fuck with it? All right, what do you say? What do you say on Monday night? You're doing much like a Monday afternoon. That's the.

00 when we got the place. Yeah, yeah. Let's go. We got to play. We got to play all bridge right before they closed. Okay. So that was cool. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. Yes. Burchill. Right before they closed right now. So we, we we got to experience images at Fairview. Out plays a lot and some of those show they'll be our next book. Yeah. Awesome. We can't wait. Thank you so much for here. Thank you. Guys. So we want you out again for the next book tour release. Tell everybody where they can get this book. Sure. Jersey man on Booking.com. And we got a ton of merch, too. That's right. Awesome. Cool. Frank White, Alan Tokyo. Everyone out there. Merck. Music nerds, get this book. Go. Thanks, boys. All right. Thank you guys. That's also very cool. Awesome, If you just saw us talking to Frank and al from Jersey metal, you're sipping on a clubbing kettle. You have your foot all the way down on the gas pedal, and you want the best in life. You should never settle. Then you just watch. Not these two fucking guys. Podcast. We. I just want to say thank you so much to Frank white and Alan, you all for coming down. Jersey metal book. Please go get their book and support. The book is phenomenal for music nerds like us. You're going to enjoy new Jersey local metal. And even if you're not a music nerd and you're from Jersey or you're just. That's a band's support. Get the book. And I also want to say thank you so much to Blank Space Studios in Midland Park, new Jersey for having us blank space, that studio for all your rental needs. Check them out and, enjoy. too much of a shadow on the nothing but your nuts here. Whatever the fuck is in your pocket. Right? Whatever's in your pocket. This. Yeah. Oh. My dick. Okay. You got a square dick? What do Michael Hutchence. Right. Yeah. Okay. What's your Michael Hutchence from? Hutchins. Hutchins? Hutchins? No. Hutchins here from right.